Driver2165

Oh, good. Me too...

Hooray for historically and empirically disproven socio-economic systems!

yeah sweden and norway aren't getting it done are they?

not to mention everyother country in the top ten of highest living standards in the world.

i took the test for dugan. he came back strong republican. he was about 5% further right on the social scale and he'd be a fascist.

Yeah I really want to emulate Sweden.

Socialism's downside: 100 million dead

Socialism's upside: ABBA, Volvo's and suicide.

And here's a very concisely written, balanced, well researched and statistically sound refute to the almost comically tired argument that "Socialism works in Sweden." I guess it all comes down to ones definition of "works."

Read if you dare...

Another point not brought up there is Sweden's lack of any significant spending on national defense (and that's not uncommon in Europeon countries). I guess if Germany goes bat-sh*t for a 3rd round they expect the U.S. to step in once again.

http://www.namyth.com/SocialismWORKS!/index.php?sw=Sweden

oh yeah, well your mom is so easy that i'd be your dad if the dog hadn't beat me up the stairs...

Ahh, Zakcq always raising the bar with your progressive, compassionate and cosmopolitan words and ways!

i know you are, but what am i?

hmm that article you posted is mostly based on myth and doctored statistics.

that site as a whole doesn't seem to be a great resource (based on the front page). what is it like a libertarian onion or something?

Doctored statistics? You're an idiot, most of the statistics I used are from firsthand accounts of Swedish businessmen, the CIA World Factbook and Sweden's own Institute of Trade. Having a college kid understanding of global socioeconomics must be as fun as this peach background you use.

But, I noticed, this site as a whole doesn't seem to be a great resource (based on your front page, that is). What is it, a Baby R' Us ongoing socialist commentary of rapid transit or something?

If you want to take a look at doctored statistics, study Swedish unemployment rates or their medical inpatient/outpatient quality of care figures. Jackass.

haha you're an idiot, nick

you seriously just gave me shit for writing personal posts on my personal weblog.

the best part is you're one of the more intelligent conservatives.Well how about a reference here or there? For all I know you made it all up (you did).

Just look at the very first one? You say they should base their standard of living on "buying power of the Swedish crown (Krona), the amount of people working for productive aims or creating innovations, [or] it's Gross National Product" instead of what it's based on, which is how much most people have.

Now why would you want to change the very definition of a high standard of living? Because it makes socialism look bad and fascism (like the US) look fantastic. For each of your new definitions, a standard of living is higher when the richest members are even more wealthy than the poorest. That's just how it works. It doesn't take more than an algrebra student to figure that out.

are you in mexico?

Oh wow, I got Ryan arguing with a libertarian think-tank!

I wouldn't waste much of your time Pheobus...I still like Ryan, but anyone who thinks the U.S. is a "fascist" nation is probably beyond reasoning with.

As I've said before, it all depends on your definition of "works." On the surface a country like Sweden might appear to be a socialist Utopia, but clearly they have serious issues with their economy and infrastructure. There's no such thing as an unemployment rate when you can create a bunch of fake jobs that don't produce anything for people without work.

On the other hand, if Sweden/Norway/France/the Taliban are so great and the U.S. is "fascist" why not leave? "Fascism" is a pretty serious charge to make (if you were in fact being serious and not hyperbolic). If the U.S. ever goes commie I'd probably leave...show some intellectual integrity.

fascist - meant to piss dude off

nobody said sweden is a utopia, but it is ranked higher than the US on just about everything (except homeruns)

because i don't speak anything but english (my spanish is meh) and sweden sucks as home runs

I think the day that Sweden takes our home runs away from us can truly be a day of reckoning. I think they're already scoring more goals than us.

I think it's interesting you guys like baseball as much as you do, it being about as "mom & apple pie, patriotic, old-fashioned, white-bread American" as it is.

guys, he's only going to understand my form of argument.

try repeating everything he says.

Socialism is a great idea, but Phoebus Apollo is right. Quality or even timely medical care is hard to get in a socialist society. I don't even know you, but it seems that with all the shopping you do and fancy products you're looking at, I don't understand why you are complaining about a capatalist society.

To follow up,

My WHOIS info is part of some legal situation I don't feel like explaining on some random blog... I live in Portland OR, and you can call me Phoebus.

"Just look at the very first one? You say they should base their standard of living on "buying power of the Swedish crown (Krona), the amount of people working for productive aims or creating innovations, [or] it's Gross National Product" instead of what it's based on, which is how much most people have."

So, the value of their currency, in terms of buying power and productivity, has nothing to do with what their WEEKLY WAGES BUY FOR THEM ON A DAILY BASIS? Let's just ignore the pesky word "economics" and pretend like it doesn't exist. Fucking moron.

What they have compared to Americans is jack all. Compare the technology available to even the poorest of Americans to those in Sweden. Most poor families have one or even two cars, 4 televisions, cable television, and own homes. Compare that to Swedes who are lucky if they have a single tv for state-sponsored news, a car, and who rarely own their home.

Also, regarding currency, just ask someone from Argentina if a stable currency is important to your quality of living.

As for a citation of Swedes having low buying power, low GDP, low PPP, and a bad currency, just take a look at the CIA World Factbook and cross compare. I shouldn't have to cite something so simple. Read a book.

"nobody said sweden is a utopia, but it is ranked higher than the US on just about everything (except homeruns)"

I've already debunked in multiple places the many statistics that make Sweden have a "higher quality of living"... not only in that article but in a variety of other places.

Poverty and unemployment rates are askew because of the overall poor Swedish economy and it's incredibly massive welfare state. The Swedish economy and it's economic status is overall incredibly poor, it's buying power is nonexistant, it's job creation rate is bogged down by bureaucracy, and you know a nation is doing bad domestically when it's tourism industry is considered a major trade.

Another much flaunted point in the Swedish society that gets it "points" in the game of "standard of living" is it's health care system... but this is exaggerated/stupid. Let me show you just what I mean with a little game of point/counterpoint.

Point) Sweden has a lower overall mortality rate.

Counterpoint) Sweden lives in a homogenous society where lifestyles differ little from person to person. Its medical system actually has a very low success rate with treatable diseases. Where Swedes succeed is dealing with diseases and illnesses that don't actually have anything actually to do with medical care. Lifestyle choices dictate the course of most of a person's health in an opulent society. Look at the deaths in America from...

A) Drinking

B) Smoking

C) Overeating

These are the problems that cause our mortality to skyrocket in comparison to Sweden. In fact, nearly a third of our mortality rate in the United States is due to HEART DISEASE. Swedish people don't have to worry about heart disease nearly as much since they well, can't afford to overeat like Americans and have to keep themselves busy with tedious labor that substitutes itself as "daily exercise". Americans, conversely, are decadent and spend extra time on their X-Box while watching DVD's and High Definition television.

In short, what makes Swedes healthier than Americans is the fact that they are all somewhat poor Catholics who don't have much in terms of social lives beyond worshipping the welfare state and having sex with rich American tourists & college kids. While they're living this mundane life of the Sweden culture, Americans are living it up by getting fat, drinking and drugging themselves to death, and contracting lung cancer. Just one look at the variety of cultural groups in America will show you how the statistics get easily skewed: from lifestyle choices of various ethnic, religious, or subcultural sources.

In other words, Americans are more rich and hedonistic than Swedes. Thus, they tend to not live as long.

If you actually compare the death rates of diagnosed diseases between America and Sweden, you will find that the American health care system has a higher treatment rate of diagonosed conditions in everything but perhaps heart disease issues that stem more from lifestyle choices than medical deficiencies.

This, of course, has little to do with anything doctors can treat. So a high mortality rate in this instance is not undefeatable proof of a "better" health care system.

Point) Sweden has a lower overall infant mortality rate.

Counterpoint) Infant mortality rate in America, a decisively larger nation, is an aggregate figure. Some states have infant mortality rates comparable to Sweden. There is low infant mortality in countrysides, high infant mortality in cities. This is even true in Stockholm, which has a higher infant mortality rate than most American states.

Likewise, Americans have more birth-related issues again, from lifestyle choices. Crack babies, babies born underweight, babies born prematurely... these aren't things doctors usually have little control over. They're things that improving our medical care system would not help. Again, this is because Americans tend to have irresponsible lifestyles. This has nothing to do with government - unless you are advocating the United States make Catholicism the national religion and impose domestic controls to make people more identical to each other.

Lastly, these statistics are askew as well. The American system is forced to count all miscarriages as part of infant mortality, and in some surveys, abortions. Miscarriages count in America and not in Sweden because there are drug treatments in the American health care system that can do a measure of prevention of miscarriages... making it a "treatable" disease. It's hardly a foolproof method. This is an example of why the statistics are so idiotic and misleading.

Point) Sweden gives everyone care.

Counterpoint) This is true, however due to high inpatient/outpatient rates, the amount of people either turned down or put on excessive waiting lists is obscene. The government mandating universal health care IS NOT a guarantee of service! People seem to not understand that.

Where does a rich person in Sweden go when they want care? They fly to America, of course. Wonder why?

In short, the reason I seek to challenge the idea of "standard of living" is because it is an inadequate way to measure the actual quality of a government's system. It's not showing us the real flaws of our system and it's overglorifying inherently flawed international systems. I've shown it to be inadequate over and over.

Far be it from me to put America on a pedastal here, I'll criticize American policy left and right. However, I'd be a fool, and you would be, to think "standard of living" is some kind of serious litmus of what makes for good policy, in any way, shape or form.

Alas, I must go. It's been fun kids!

As a point of correction, I am not certain that most poor families owning homes, but I know most middle class do, and even the rich in Sweden have a hard time with home ownership due to the massive real estate policies in Sweden. Minor correction, but it was necessary to say before I left.

wow, someone has way to much time on his hands.

PWNED!!!

that kinda sucked so i stopped reading it. i do think it's cool that we finally have a potty-mouthed conservative think tank, even if it is just one guy.

basically here's my deal, nick. i don't really care what you have to say about sweden. i might have, but you responded with my request for a single citation with gross generalizations and the inability to see that someone might not want to own a car and an xbox because they don't want to.

who's the anonymous fat broad? have you tried getting healthcare in the US? I pay more for healthcare here (if you're lucky enough to have an employer that will help out with the bill) than I pay in income tax. that doesn't even include what my employer picks up.

oh and before you accuse me of being closed minded or whatever, yeah sure i'm happy to ignore any wacko who starts posting 14 mile long rants that have no basis in reality, who's idea of a reference is "go read a book fucking moron".

enjoy your little anarchist christian la la land, moonbat. (or is it camel fucker? i can't seem to remember which one is for liberals and which one is for conservatives)

don't forget, keep portland wierd.

you know, i've been thinking of starting a think tank...

oop, what do you know??? i just did...

everyone take me seriously now...

"Where does a rich person in Sweden go when they want care? They fly to America, of course"

Better Question:

Although it is now a bit harder to get (having more babies isn't the answer for me anymore), America still has SSI, welfare, and medicare. Even Canadians come to America to get medical care because they are put on huge waiting lists in Canada. Face it doctors, scientists and healthcare workers are motivated by money just like the rest of us. Most highly paid American doctors are going to be motivated to stay on the cutting edge of medical advancements and do efficient quality work. The waiting lists are lower here because the doctors want to get more patients through their door and since we don't see the doctor for free we don't go for every little thing which in turn prevents long waiting lists.

when i was growing up my family didn't have health care because we couldn't afford it, if we absolutely had to see a doctor we paid up the ass for it, which put us in debt for a very long time. I THINK HEALTH CARE SHOULD BE AVAILABLE TO EVERYONE, EVEN IF THAT MEANS PAYING MORE TAXES!

Perhaps we should continue this conversation when fat broad loses his/her job, the bank forcloses on his/her mcmansion and his/her little girl has a tooth that hurts.

(which has a pretty good chance of happening nowadays. more american's went bankrupt last year then graduated from university).

In a socialist society you could be dead before you ever even get in to see the doctor.

as the one person on here who has actually lived in one, that is pattently false. Although you may have to wait for preventative stuff (like getting teath cleaned) you don't ever have to wait for life threatening stuff. Actually, in Germany at least, they even train the peramedics to do emergancy surgery, so you don't even have to wait to get to the hospital.

Don't talk about stuff you don't know about.

oh, and dugan, that freaking if you hate it why don't you leave stuff is so dumb.

If you think the left wing is so stupid why don't you move to Houston and stop benifiting from all of that Minnesotan liberalism?

Or maybe we could just stop asking stupid questions.

Great! A paramedic doing surgery.

yeah, a properly trained paramedic doing surgery.

You are statistically far more likely to survive if you receive care in the first 5 minutes, especially in the cases of heart problems.

I've lived in Canada for 5 years and I haven't met a single Canadian who crosses the border to get health care.

I'm staying out of the rest of the discussion.

Well, I have lived in Canada. My friend's mom had to go to Seattle to get treated for heart disease because she would have died in the 6 months it would have taken her to get the care she needed in Alberta. I have another friend who was going blind and they told him it would take over 6 months to get an appoijntment with a specialist. He went to Arizona to get proper care.

haha tad did you not see the libertarian's language?

i don't fucking care what sort of language goes on in here.

i'm still waiting for a reference to a single list that shows the us higher than sweden on anything that matters (and no, "open up a book" is not a reference) that's right this is a challenge to you, little nicky, you illiterate tom delay worshiping sack of assholes. you've had three days to come up with a single solitary statistic and you've come up with "oh yeah that one like world almanac or something showed that the us has more millionaires than sweden so the us has a better quality of life"

I don't think the "leave if you don't like it here" statement is dumb at all. I rarely hear you guys say much positive about the United States, if I ever have. Obviously you like something here or you wouldn't stay.

Besides, Minnesota is turning less and less liberal everyday.

Pheobus Apollo wrote a way too long reply there, but it was still highly entertaining to watch him kick all of your butts.

And Ryan is right that the "go read a book you f*cking moron" response was pretty weak and undermined a lot of what he was saying. Of course the responses of "Christian anarchy" (who said that guy is a Christian?) and "camel f*cking" and "sack of assholes" aren't much better. That's why I am trying to cut back on the swearing when I argue—it just makes you look like a moron.

on the other hand, this is my website and if someone comes in here spreading lies and i ask that he come up with anything that even slightly proves his point, and he responds with "open any book, any book will do, it's even laid out in children's stories" i'm gonna start insulting him because 1) it's fun 2) nobody else seems to do it when he does it on other sites (i googled his site and all i could find was "come on guys i'm a conservative too! go to my site! please!?! i wanna be part of the gang!" with no responses) and 3) it's fun

if you don't like it, don't start flame wars on people's weblogs

so dugan,

i think it's fair to say that you stay in minnesota because you feel you can make it better.

i think you have your answer then don't you?